Chemours CEO talks Teflon and local weather change

Later, co-host Ellen McGirt continues the dialog about PFAS with Dr. Maria Doa, the Environmental Protection Fund’s senior director of chemical compounds coverage. Doa explains why “well being and security and a inexperienced economic system are usually not mutually unique.”

Hearken to the episode or learn the total transcript beneath. 

Transcript

Alan Murray: Management Subsequent is powered by the parents at Deloitte, who, like me, are tremendous centered on how CEOs can lead within the context of disruption and evolving societal expectations.

Welcome to Management Subsequent, the podcast concerning the altering guidelines of enterprise management. I’m Alan Murray, and I’m right here with my favourite co-host, Ellen McGirt. Ellen. Good to see you.

Ellen McGirt: You’re my favourite co-host too, Alan. Good to see you. It’s good to be right here. And I’m actually concerned about at this time’s interview. It’s with Mark Newman, the CEO of the chemical firm Chemours. I couldn’t make it to this one, which was actually a bummer, as a result of I had a bunch of questions for Mark. You’ll hear me on the B-side of this, nonetheless, however I’m assured that you just’ve lined lots of floor. 

Murray: Yeah, it’s a captivating firm, Ellen. Chemours spun out from DuPont in 2015. It produces lots of completely different chemical compounds. It’s most likely finest recognized for producing Teflon, that chemical coating that’s largely related to nonstick surfaces on pots and pans. But it surely’s additionally used to waterproof clothes, to make automobile paint good and glossy, fortify photo voltaic panels. It has prior to now typically has been considered an environmental downside, however the attention-grabbing factor about Chemours, that we’ll discover out on this episode, is that they’ve actually shifted to focusing extra on environmental and local weather options.

McGirt: Sure, I’m concerned about studying extra about that. Teflon, in fact, can also be the good metaphor of selection for our legislators who by no means get caught, by no means get into hassle. So it’s actually a great tool. I’m actually inquisitive about how Chemours goes about producing these chemical compounds. As a few of our viewers might know, Teflon is taken into account a polyfluoroalkyl substance, and I simply struggled to learn to pronounce that phrase. Polyfluoroalkyl substances are higher generally known as PFAS—spelled P F A S—and so they’re a category of chemical compounds thought of without end chemical compounds, that means they don’t break down within the setting. And naturally, the ingestion of PFAS both immediately or by way of contaminated water has been linked to some fairly critical stuff like cancers or different well being issues. Now I do know that Chemours is constant to spend money on PFAS, and I additionally know that they suppose they’ll achieve this responsibly. Did you get an opportunity to speak to him about that?

Murray: Yeah, I did, Ellen, and I feel you’ll be impressed with what he needed to say. Mark is definitely solely the second CEO of Chemours. He took over in 2021. And since then, he has personally been very vocal concerning the firm’s dedication to each righting its previous environmental wrongs and enjoying a productive position in coping with local weather change. We spent lots of time speaking about that, about the way it will transition to changing into a clear firm with out avoiding public costs of greenwashing. That is the kind of purposeful however troublesome management by way of transition that made Mark such an attention-grabbing Management Subsequent visitor.

McGirt: I agree, and it’s necessary to dive proper into these actually powerful topics. So I’m entering into with an open thoughts though I’m at all times on the proverbial ledge. However I additionally need to find out about PFAS generally—their makes use of, their influence, and the way they are often deployed safely. So later on this episode, I’m going to speak with Dr. Maria Doa, the senior director of chemical compounds coverage on the Environmental Protection Fund, and attempt to get my questions answered.

Murray: I’m trying ahead to listening to from Dr. Doa, Ellen, and I’m trying ahead to you listening to from Mark. So with none additional ado, right here is the dialog with Mark Newman of Chemours.

Mark, thanks a lot for being right here and having this dialog.

Mark Newman: Alan, nice to be right here at this time. Love speaking to you.

Murray: I’ve been actually trying ahead to this, since you run a chemical firm, a chemical firm that makes merchandise which have prior to now been accused of despoiling the setting, however you might be clearly dedicated to creating it an organization that helps remedy our environmental issues. And I need to spend a while speaking about what that transition appears like and the way you talk it to folks and keep away from costs of greenwashing. All of these issues. However earlier than I do any of that, inform us what Chemours is and the place it got here from.

Newman: Okay, properly, Chemours is a chemistry firm. Chemours is 6,600 staff robust. We’re about $7 billion in income. About 4,400 of our staff are right here within the U.S., the remainder international, and we now have three business main companies. Our largest is Titanium Applied sciences. Suppose titanium dioxide that goes into coatings and laminates and plastics. Our Thermal and Specialised Options are actually centered on sustainable vitality or thermal administration. After which our Superior Efficiency Supplies or fluoropolymers, as they’re typically known as, is absolutely centered on lots of very high-value end-use purposes. 

I need to begin although, by speaking about our imaginative and prescient, as a result of I feel that is what’s thrilling and energizing our staff. Our imaginative and prescient is that collectively, we create a greater world by way of the facility of our chemistry. And so our elementary perception is we are able to make the world higher because of Chemours merchandise, our folks, and the way we run our operations. And that inherently, sustainability is a key side to our company technique. So in our TiO2 enterprise, our purpose is to be essentially the most sustainable Tio2 enterprise on the earth. And we only in the near past launched a product which, for plastic producers, will cut back their vitality price or vitality utilization by 6%. That is form of a brand new grade that we simply launched. In our thermal administration enterprise, we’re driving a lot decrease international warming potential in our refrigerants. We’re driving lots of work-around vitality effectivity, whether or not that’s in warmth pumps to interchange fossil fuels, or warmth pumps in electrical automobiles to enhance battery vary. After which lastly, I imply, in our superior efficiency supplies enterprise, our merchandise are getting used at the moment in a wide selection of merchandise, together with your cell phone. However we’re going to allow larger speeds in knowledge, which is nice for commerce and nationwide safety. We’re enabling EVs. I used to be simply speaking to you about among the advances in in EV battery know-how, which our chemistry is supporting. After which lastly, the entire vitality transition or vitality diversification with hydrogen, our Nafion membrane is on the middle of an electrolyzer that makes hydrogen from renewable electrical energy, but in addition in a gas cell that converts that hydrogen again to electrical energy for mobility or different industrial makes use of.

Murray: And I need to go into all of these, I notably need to go into Nafion and the promise of hydrogen as a solution to our local weather and international warming issues. However permit me simply to return for a minute, as a result of Chemours was born out of DuPont. 

Newman: Right.

Murray: Spun out in?

Newman: 2015. So we’re seven years outdated. 

Murray: Previous to that point, earlier than you bought there, merchandise like Freon have been accused of contributing to the degradation of the ozone setting, Teflon was without end chemical compounds, these items which are going be round without end. There have been lots of complaints about their impact on the setting. And a few folks nonetheless say that each one all the things you’re speaking about is simply greenwashing. You’re simply attempting to make up for the sins of the previous. And we’ll go into the element of what you’re doing. However simply broadly talking, how do you reply to that? 

Newman: Yeah, clearly there are legacy points, a few of which, as you mentioned, predates the formation of the corporate. And we’re addressing these legacy points, you recognize, within the communities through which we function. However we’re very centered on this isn’t about greenwashing. In reality, it’s about sustainability in each the merchandise that we make and the way we make them. So, for instance, we now have dedicated that almost all of our merchandise by income, will contribute to UN sustainability improvement objectives. We’re, as of final 12 months, about very near 50%. We’ll be past that this 12 months, with the expansion that we see in Nafion membranes and low international warming refrigerants. And so sure, you recognize, there’s a historical past of those merchandise, you recognize, not being as sustainable as they’re at this time. That’s historical past. And, in actual fact, you recognize, to your touch upon Freon, that was, you recognize, that was phased out beneath the Montreal Protocol, you recognize, which was within the Nineteen Nineties. In order that’s not current historical past. However sure, it’s a part of the legacy of, these are merchandise that at the moment are way more sustainable.

Murray: Does it frustrate you that you just nonetheless need to stay with that legacy?

Newman: It does, to be trustworthy. One of many irritating issues, although, that you just talked about, is that the entire dialogue on fluorine chemistry, there’s two huge parts which are lacking, and also you touched on one already. The primary is, lots of the problems we’re discussing at this time need to do how with how the merchandise have been made or used many years in the past. Let’s put it within the context of, all of us need to get higher, and there have been issues prior to now that have been lower than the place we’re at this time. That’s one. The second is very often, particularly with fluoropolymers, folks suppose this is a matter about Teflon frying pans, as a result of that’s what they keep in mind, that is what they affiliate the model with. However with out with out fluoropolymers, you gained’t have a U.S. semicon business. We make a fluoropolymer known as PFA, the acronym, the place we’re the one U.S. producer of this product. And we’re considered one of two or three on the earth that make a excessive purity PFA, which is required for the newest semicon fabs. As I discussed, our fluoropolymers are in anode and cathodes in EV batteries. Your cell phone doesn’t work with out fluoropolymers. Excessive-speed knowledge doesn’t occur with out fluoropolymers. In reality, in fluorochemicals, we’re engaged on immersion cooling, the place we are able to immerse your complete server in a cooling fluid to cut back the vitality load of knowledge facilities. So, so pay attention, I feel after we consider the subsequent economic system, you recognize, lots of speak within the final week about A.I. A.I. is about high-speed knowledge. That’s fluoropolymers. Lots of discuss nationwide safety. That’s high-speed knowledge. I imply, so that you simply take into consideration how trivialized we’ve made the dialogue about pots and pans. It’s not about pots and pans, it’s concerning the future economic system.

Murray: So, let me ask you, you’ve already given numerous examples of merchandise that Chemours is making that you just consider will assist us remedy our local weather downside or environmental downside. We talked about EVs, the necessary position you have got in EVS. We talked about carbon-friendly refrigerants. We talked about Nafion, the membrane that helps make hydrogen gas. And there’s so many I don’t know, it’s so thrilling. There are too many to go after. Inform me the one which excites you most? Yeah, you must decide amongst your youngsters.

Newman: Nicely, let me simply say the place I’ve spent essentially the most time just lately, within the final 12 months. And in case you have a look at the headlines over Chemours, it’s on hydrogen. And why is that? As a result of there are lots of scientists who consider there’s no path to internet zero with out hydrogen. So we as an organization have dedicated to a 60% greenhouse gasoline discount, absolute discount by 2030. However we all know the trail to internet zero goes to be much more troublesome, from the 60% to internet zero. Hydrogen, as an industrial vitality supply gives lots of potential. And you recognize, I feel there was a research by McKinsey that by way of 2050, 80 gigatons of CO2 will probably be eradicated by way of hydrogen. 

Murray: If we succeed. 

Newman: If we succeed. By the way in which, we’re an enormous a part of the availability chain that should develop. And so that you’ll know we’re investing to develop our Nafion membrane capability considerably.

Murray: Yeah, so speak concerning the Nafion membrane. Then what’s it that your product does to make hydrogen gas nearer to a actuality? As a result of the reality is, it isn’t a commercially viable gas in the intervening time, proper?

Newman: In the mean time, though I’d say the Inflation Discount Act stimulus will, I feel, result in lots of improvement. That the subsidy or the tax incentives within the invoice will actually you recognize, deliver lots of hydrogen capability and convey scale to the business that can make it extra price aggressive. The Nafion membrane, to start with, these are membranes which are concerning the width of a human hair. They sit between two electrodes normally run at, you recognize, 880 volts. So these are high-voltage electrodes changing water to hydrogen and oxygen. Proper. And so the good thing about our membrane is—and once more, as a result of it’s a fluoropolymer—it might stand up to warmth, it’s non-conductive, however it permits protons to stream throughout the membrane as you cut up the water molecule into hydrogen and oxygen. So we’re working primarily on two issues. How can we cut back the ohmic loss within the electrolyte, so throughout our membrane, one, and the way can we considerably enhance sturdiness? The opposite factor we’re engaged on, clearly, for the electrolyzer producers is the price of manufacturing.

Murray: If we efficiently make this transition, and if hydrogen is a crucial a part of the answer, don’t these membranes turn into like semiconductors? They turn into core to the brand new economic system. 

Newman: We wish to say we’re on the coronary heart of the hydrogen economic system.

Murray: Yeah. So clarify, clarify to me why hydrogen is so necessary to the local weather answer, like the place is that this? When you crack the economics, you make it cheap sufficient to be commercially viable. What issues is it going to resolve for us? The place’s it going for use first?

Newman: I consider there are vital purposes in business, proper, the place you have got massive consumption of vitality. And in reality… 

Murray: Pure gasoline first.

Newman: Precisely. In reality, we have been named as a participant within the ARCHES2 hydrogen hub software in West Virginia. And we’re already taking a look at how we rework our steam technology at our crops in West Virginia to include as much as 20% of hydrogen within the gas supply. So you’re taking a pure gasoline boiler that’s used to make steam for course of steam within the chemical industries, an enormous vitality use. We consider we are able to convert these boilers to take as present design with a slight modification, 20% of the gas could be pure hydrogen, which has has no carbon signature to it. So I feel this can assist the vitality transition.

[Music starts]

Murray: I’m right here with Joe Ucuzoglu, the CEO of Deloitte and the sponsor of this podcast for all of its seasons. Thanks for that, Joe. 

Joe Ucuzoglu: Thanks, Alan. Pleasure to be right here. 

Murray: Joe, everyone knows that what will get measured will get managed. Of us like your colleagues at Deloitte have spent a century build up metrics to maintain monitor of shareholder return. However how can we measure stakeholder return?

Ucuzoglu: That is nonetheless all about measuring attributes that do in actual fact drive shareholder worth. As a result of over the long run, in case you are driving indicators that signify worth creation to your stakeholders, that can translate into premium returns to your shareholders. So what that is actually about is lengthening our horizons. It’s a mixture of quantitative and qualitative metrics. There’s an infinite quantity of labor to be achieved, however you’re seeing an actual sense of urgency round this. 

Murray: I feel that’s a extremely necessary level. That in the long run, over years, many years, the pursuits of shareholders and the pursuits of the stakeholders converge. However within the brief time period, they’ll typically go in numerous instructions. 

Ucuzoglu: They definitely can. However what you see is main traders encouraging the businesses they spend money on to make sure that they’re constructing and main sustainable enterprises with the target of maximizing shareholder worth over a very long time. 

Murray: Joe, thanks for being with us. 

Ucuzoglu: Alan, it’s an actual pleasure.

[Music ends]

Murray: Let’s go to the battery problem. Everyone knows that’s an enormous problem. I imply, Normal Motors says it’s solely going to make EVs by 2035. California has mentioned they’re solely going to let EVs on the highway by 2035. Yeah, that’s lots of batteries. What downside is Chemours fixing for us there?

Newman: To begin with, batteries are going to larger voltage and better cost density. One of many virtues of fluoropolymers is their dielectric properties. And so the identical properties that make it an incredible membrane make it an incredible electrical insulator. So when you’ve got cables to allow excessive velocity charging, you’re going to want a fluoropolymer to take care of the warmth and {the electrical} load in these circuits. The efficiency of the electrical automobile is is all about how properly the motor works and the way properly {the electrical} infrastructure works. In reality, lots of the work occurring now in EVs is how do you make {the electrical} infrastructure extra environment friendly so that you just want much less lithium—you are able to do with a smaller battery dimension? After which as I used to be mentioning to you earlier, we’re very concerned in sort of the subsequent technology of battery know-how, which is a way more sustainable, decrease price, decrease vitality utilization manufacture of the battery itself, by way of our fluoropolymer being components within the battery producer. So we’re very concerned within the ecosystem of an electrical car from begin to end.

Murray: You’ve already given us two very compelling instances that present what you might be doing is actual. It’s arduous to accuse investments and actions of that dimension as being greenwashing. However however was there some extent? When did you personally or how did Chemours and DuPont earlier than it make the flip? When did you personally say, Hey, we’ve acquired to cease enjoying protection, which they spent lots of money and time and legal professionals and so on, enjoying protection, we’ve acquired to cease enjoying protection and begin enjoying offense on environmental issues. How did that transition occur?

Newman: Our firm was shaped, as I mentioned earlier, in 2015. In 2018 we realized that, look, we now have lots of legacy that comes by way of how we have been shaped. However the place can we need to go going ahead? And so in 2018 we got here out with what we name our company accountability commitments. In that dedication was a dedication across the merchandise we have been making, by way of UN SDG objectives [sustainable development goals], in addition to this dedication to a better than 99% discount in fluorogenic compounds, and the 60% greenhouse gasoline discount. So in 2018, it felt fairly novel versus lots of business friends, however we felt like that is what we have to do. By the way in which, once you’re witnessing the influence of legacy choices that weren’t sustainable, you have got a deeper degree of conviction of what you need to be going ahead. 

Murray: And what you don’t need to be. 

Newman: Precisely, yeah. After I grew to become CEO in 2021, I mentioned, you recognize, the truth that we name them company accountability commitments, it looks like they’re not integral to our technique. We benefit from taking that basis now and combine it into this imaginative and prescient that we need to create a greater world by way of the facility of our chemistry.

Murray: And the way has that call modified your organization?

Newman: I really feel it’s, I really feel it’s actually struck a chord with our staff and with our clients. I genuinely really feel that that is who we’re and who we need to be. And it’s, it’s actually pushed lots of enthusiasm and drive within the firm, although we’re nonetheless engaged on, as you mentioned, you recognize, legacy points associated to how we have been shaped. And we’re additionally coping with a problem that there are lots of narratives round fluorine chemistry, which are incomplete. 

Murray: However on the legacy points, it doesn’t change the way in which when someone says, Oh, however right here’s one thing you’ve been doing for years and years that isn’t constant together with your new imaginative and prescient. What do you do about that?

Newman: We’re engaged on previous points and addressing them neighborhood by neighborhood. And so we proceed to stay as much as the commitments we’ve made round remediation because it pertains to legacy points. So we deliver folks again to say, we agreed to do that and we’re doing it. However look, we offer nice jobs on this neighborhood and we offer an answer for lots of future issues that we wish right here in America.

Murray: So, let’s speak a bit of bit about your private story and the way that formed your management model. You grew up in Jamaica? 

Newman: Sure, I grew up on a farm in Jamaica. 

Murray: So what I imply, inform us how you bought from rising up on a farm in Jamaica, to working this big international chemical firm? 

Newman: Nicely, it’s a protracted story, however I’ll maintain it brief. Pay attention, I grew up on a farm. I feel rising up on a farm retains you grounded, no pun supposed. And I had the privilege, due to my mom being Canadian, to be educated in Canada, and ended up working for Normal Motors. They introduced me to the U.S. And you recognize, my profession with GM accelerated and finally, I grew to become a public firm CFO, and was requested to hitch the Chemours workforce, after they have been being spun out of DuPont in 2015, because the CFO. , I’ve at all times had this want to guide, and I really like main. And and so, you recognize, when Mark Vergnano determined to retire, you recognize, I definitely was very within the prospect of main Chemours. I felt like I used to be one of many founding fathers of a brand new firm, and actually had lots of ardour round what we might do with Chemours.

Murray: Huge query: You’re a lot nearer to the science than I’m, or definitely than most individuals are. You perceive the place the know-how is and the place the know-how isn’t. Are we on a path, in your view, to get to internet zero by 2050? Is {that a} affordable purpose, given what you recognize concerning the know-how?

Newman: So, I’d say in truth, based mostly on what we all know at this time, the trail to internet zero past significant reductions in greenhouse gasoline remains to be a little bit of a query mark. I feel everybody realizes it’s the fitting aspiration to have, that we have to have this sort of aspiration.

Murray: I’m unsure it’s everybody. However we’re getting there.

Newman: I’d say, sure, I’d say most, possibly I’d say most CEOs, yeah, as a bunch, understand that the long run by way of the local weather, and our environmental signature must be higher than it’s at this time. And we have to discover a path to get there as shortly and as sustainably as potential. So I consider within the energy of chemistry, and I consider we are going to, you recognize, our historical past is filled with human endeavor that, you recognize, to resolve issues that then appeared unsolvable, however in hindsight, have been solved. Given the human situation, why can we consider that this one way or the other is an unsolvable downside?

Murray: So that you’ve been CEO for a 12 months and a half. Over that interval, I’d say, during the last three years, we’ve seen an enormous improve within the variety of CEOs who’ve dedicated to internet zero 2050. And we’ve additionally seen CEOs considering in a different way about their jobs and their tasks [inaudible]. It’s sort of the parallel to what you have been saying about taking company social accountability, which sort of feels like one thing you retain in a aspect workplace and go to each infrequently to creating it core to their methods. Do you see that taking place? And why do you suppose it’s occurring? And can it proceed to occur? And the final piece is, how do you take care of the political pushback, notably right here within the U.S., to that improvement?

Newman: Yeah. So I’d say the very first thing is, that is about making a sustainable future, a sustainable future for the corporate, its staff and society at massive. So I feel in case you have a look at it by way of that lens, that’s that’s a really useful to say, is what we’re doing going to make the long run higher than it’s at this time? And secondly, is it true to the values we espouse as an organization? So very often we are saying we take a look at, you recognize, what we’re doing within the ESG area to say, properly, how does that align with the values that we discuss day by day, by way of the tradition of the corporate? As a result of in the event that they’re not in a position to really feel very dissonant to staff. And I’d say to the final a part of your query, we strive, or at the least I strive in my position as CEO, to not make this a platform for a quote-unquote social agenda. As a result of there are lots of people utilizing completely different elements of the social agenda for various causes. So, you recognize, whether or not it has to do with transgender rights or girls’s reproductive rights, I feel there’s a manner of creating the corporate open and accessible and secure for everybody, with out essentially utilizing it to advertise a social trigger. And I feel, as a CEO, I really feel such as you’re very often placed on the spot to advertise a social trigger. And fairly frankly, I really feel the, I consider, the core accountability of a CEO is to say, am I doing the fitting factor for this firm and for its stakeholders? And is is the way in which I’m approaching this subject in keeping with that initiative or that purpose? In addition to the purpose of being true to what you promote your self to be?

Murray: Yeah, I feel that’s very properly put. Mark Newman, thanks a lot for spending time speaking to me. 

Newman: Thanks, Alan. Nice to be right here.

[Music]

McGirt: Dr. Doa, thanks a lot for being with us at this time. That is such an advanced chemical query. So that you’re the right particular person to assist us type it out. Can we begin by simply understanding a bit of bit about what you’re doing at EDF?

Maria Doa: I’m engaged on extra accountable use of chemical compounds and lowering exposures and dangers to chemical compounds, exposures to all of us. And importantly, exposures to these susceptible, those that reside close to amenities which have larger publicity to chemical compounds, and people which are extra vulnerable to chemical compounds reminiscent of pregnant girls, youngsters, the aged.

McGirt: Let’s break it down for our listeners, as a result of it will get, as I discussed, fairly sophisticated fairly shortly. What’s a working definition of PFAS that the typical particular person might perceive and the place do we discover them? What merchandise do we discover them in?

Doa: Nicely, PFAS are a bunch of associated widely-used, very long-lasting artificial chemical compounds. Meaning they’re artifical. They’re appropriately known as without end chemical compounds, as a result of they final for therefore lengthy within the setting and are very troublesome to destroy. Additionally, many PFAS can accumulate and final a very long time in people. Some, for years. They usually have many traits that make them helpful in merchandise, and so they’re utilized in many issues from nonstick cookware, waterproofing for clothes, stain resistance for furnishings. They’re additionally utilized in firefighting foam.

McGirt: In order that they’re helpful, they’re widespread, they’re a aggressive benefit in enterprise. So I can see why they’re in all places now. However what influence have they got on folks and the setting?

Doa: Due to their widespread use, and due to their persistence within the setting, they’re discovered within the blood of individuals and animals everywhere in the world and all through the setting. For instance, the Facilities for Illness Management and Prevention has discovered that PFAS are within the blood of 97% of Individuals, which may be very uncommon for chemical compounds to be that prime.

McGirt: So what does it imply that they’re in our our bodies? That they’re round us? What are the impacts?

Doa: Many PFAS have been recognized to trigger dangerous results, notably in case you’re uncovered to them over a protracted time frame or uncovered throughout sure important life levels, like throughout being pregnant and in creating infants. So as well as, they could improve the chance of some cancers reminiscent of kidney and testicular most cancers, and so they can harm the liver.

McGirt: I feel what Chemours’ huge argument is, is that each one the issues with these chemical compounds are prior to now. Can PFAS in your understanding ever be manufactured safely and responsibly?

Doa: Nicely, to start with, it’s not all prior to now. And plenty of of those PFAS are nonetheless getting used. Chemours, for instance, switched from a PFAS generally known as PFOA, which is massively problematic, and we’re nonetheless coping with that, into one other PFAS known as GenX, which they marketed as a alternative for PFOA. I feel the problem of whether or not they are often manufactured responsibly, there’s lots of historical past that exhibits it’s very troublesome to do this given the widespread contamination and a few of it associated to the manufacturing of those PFAS or the usage of these PFAS, reminiscent of within the manufacture of plastics. So I feel the problem is what’s wanted is innovation. And progressive firms take a more energizing, broader have a look at what chemical compounds can meet the wants of their clients, slightly than transferring from one PFAS to a different, and those who transfer from the sooner PFAS to different substitutes, merely made modifications across the edges, and simply need to introduce different problematic chemical compounds, as I simply talked about with PFOA and GenX.

McGirt: We’re all of the sudden listening to about PFAS in all places. Ceaselessly chemical compounds is a extremely highly effective method to body what they’re within the creativeness of the general public, too. Why do you suppose we’re all of the sudden listening to a lot about this? And what ought to the general public learn about how to consider regulating their use?

Doa: Nicely, I feel we hear a lot about them as a result of we’re discovering them in all places, you recognize, together with folks. And so that you could be uncovered to not only one or two however a number of. And naturally, as you mentioned, I imply they’re they simply final so lengthy within the setting. Even within the setting, it’s a bit of little bit of a whack-a-mole, they transfer from like, soil to groundwater, it’s simply arduous to wash them up. In order that’s why I feel we’re listening to a lot about them. And in addition as a result of we as a society are spending some huge cash to wash them up extra so than for different chemical compounds. And these prices are being socialized throughout, you recognize, society. 

McGirt: And it’s additionally I’m struck with the poignancy of this, you recognize—I’ll provide you with an instance simply from Chemours. They manufacture chemical compounds which are going for use in EV batteries. , I’ve talked about the fluoropolymer membranes. And it simply form of strikes me is that we wish an electrical car future. , we need to have a future that contributes to getting off carbon painlessly and effectively and in time to avoid wasting the planet. In case you’re utilizing problematic chemical compounds to do it, it simply looks like such a poignant commerce off. How can we take into consideration that?

Doa: Nicely, I don’t suppose that well being and security and transferring to a greener economic system are mutually unique. You may definitely do, you are able to do that. And to the extent that one thing is, you recognize, a important use the place it’s wanted, like for EV batteries, and there are not any good substitutes, and once I imply, good substitutes, I imply, there’s not one thing that may do the identical job, say for an inexpensive, an inexpensive price, not that it’s simply important in my backside line. However you recognize, to that extent, you are able to do it and do it in such a manner that you’ve got limitations in place, that you just’re not exposing of us to this chemical that can, you recognize, that can hurt them and that must be cleaned up later. So once more, simply to reiterate, well being and security and a inexperienced economic system are usually not mutually unique.

McGirt: I at all times really feel like that is fodder for science fiction, you recognize, somebody falls right into a sewer, they’re surrounded by without end chemical compounds, and so they turn into, you recognize, the monster from the sewer sort of factor. So, thanks a lot, Dr. Doa. Is there something that you might inform us that may assist us actually, actually body the potential subject of getting these chemical compounds within the setting and in our our bodies?

Doa:  It’s an enormous subject, and I feel that people are progressive sufficient and may transfer to substitutes. It’s like, we must always cease specializing in landlines and know that the know-how has moved to smartphones, and I feel a few of these PFAS are just like the outdated landlines, you recognize—they have been most likely supported for too lengthy.

McGirt: Hello, everybody. It’s Ellen once more, after my interview with Dr. Doa. Like good journalists, we requested Chemours to touch upon her remarks. They requested to make clear one factor particularly in reference to characterizing GenX as a alternative to PFOA. Chemours responded “GenX is just not a chemical compound, however a patented know-how utilized by Chemours to assist within the manufacturing course of for 4 varieties of fluoropolymers.”

Murray: Management Subsequent is edited by Alexis Haut. It’s written by me, Alan Murray, together with my wonderful colleagues Ellen McGirt, Alexis Haut, and Megan Arnold. Our theme is by Jason Snell. Our government producer is Megan Arnold. Management Subsequent is a manufacturing of Fortune Media. Management Subsequent episodes are produced by Fortune‘s editorial workforce.

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